"The Consensus" an unresolved philosophical dialougue

Paul Bruno is a DJ and musical asthete (You can check him out every Saturday at Brooklyn's Camp, < 179 Smith St btw. Warren and Wycoff). Since list season he and I have taken to discussing the value of consensus in evaluating musical value. Here is our most recent online discussion brought on by the publication of last week's Village Voice: Pazz and Jop Poll and an article by former Pitchfork writer current curmudgeon Chris Ott (You can read the article here). I've decided to post this unedited for realism, not as you might suspect for laziness. For your convenience I've noted when we truly begin our dialougue with a bold title.

betternoise (12:29:16 AM): whats up brother?

fillmerejive (12:29:47 AM): not much, you?

betternoise (12:30:03 AM): i just got home from work

betternoise (12:30:35 AM): unfortunate i'm out of cigarettes so i have to go back out which sucks

betternoise (12:31:02 AM): are you going to the show on friday?

fillmerejive (12:31:36 AM): what show?

betternoise (12:31:50 AM): murray, dead set on destruction at the cup

fillmerejive (12:32:35 AM): oh i don't know my friend is having a birthday party at union hall

betternoise (12:32:58 AM): what? you have friends in brooklyn since when?

fillmerejive (12:33:37 AM): since like foreva!!!

betternoise (12:33:46 AM): no way!

fillmerejive (12:34:16 AM): my one friend from college who i still keep in regular contact with is a brooklynite

fillmerejive (12:34:28 AM): also corrine lives in brooklyn and mike finuzzi

betternoise (12:34:41 AM): yeah but i know them

betternoise (12:35:07 AM): so when you said "a friend" instead of either of their names i become confused and scared

fillmerejive (12:35:26 AM): well you indeed did not know this friend

betternoise (12:35:35 AM): how is that possible?

betternoise (12:36:14 AM): i was pretty sure i knew everyone you know

fillmerejive (12:37:16 AM): i'm actually very sure that is not the case, i'm a popular cad about town, i go to at least two wakes a month so i must know alot of people to feel obligated to tolerate that much mourning

betternoise (12:37:44 AM): two wakes a month?

fillmerejive (12:38:11 AM): on average

fillmerejive (12:38:25 AM): i've been to 4 actually since the new year

betternoise (12:38:32 AM): jeez

betternoise (12:38:45 AM): maybe youre bad luck

fillmerejive (12:38:49 AM): yup, alot of them are sort of proxy wakes

fillmerejive (12:39:23 AM): my dad's best friend's (who i call uncle) brother and terrence's grandfather for example

betternoise (12:40:09 AM): ugh i havent been to a wake in years thank god

fillmerejive (12:40:22 AM): lucky you

betternoise (12:40:36 AM): i'm hoping the next one will be my own

fillmerejive (12:41:07 AM): that's morbid and unlikely

betternoise (12:41:33 AM): i'm just saying i hope no one i know dies until i do

betternoise (12:41:49 AM): it'll save me from going to any wakes at least

betternoise (12:42:03 AM): but i actually i was thinking...

betternoise (12:42:22 AM): its only a matter of time until some i know is shot outside martini red

betternoise (12:42:41 AM): those stapleton night clubs have been a deathbed of late

fillmerejive (12:43:14 AM): i guess

fillmerejive (12:43:21 AM): it's not too scary yet

betternoise (12:43:34 AM): somebody was recently shot outside edgewater hall you know

fillmerejive (12:43:58 AM): ok that's one

betternoise (12:45:01 AM): http://www.silive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/1171371620316610.xml&coll=1

betternoise (12:45:50 AM): i can't believe the cop actually used the word "beef"

betternoise (12:45:53 AM): how lowborw

fillmerejive (12:46:27 AM): have you ever spoken to a police officer?

betternoise (12:46:32 AM): sure

fillmerejive (12:46:56 AM): they don't use like the queen's english

betternoise (12:47:58 AM): yeah i suppose there werent too many sleepness nights deciding if they wanted to be a poet or join the force

fillmerejive (12:48:16 AM): exactly

betternoise (12:49:48 AM): Ebanks was shot a block away from where 18-year-old Robert D'Amato was killed Sept. 24, when a fight allegedly spilled out of the former Vibe Lounge on Broad Street, then erupted into a full-on street melee.

betternoise (12:49:59 AM): it's a crime zone i tells ya!!

betternoise (12:52:42 AM): i'm listening to the new times new viking if youre at all interested

fillmerejive (12:53:03 AM): how is it

betternoise (12:53:16 AM): it's good, if a little skimpy

betternoise (12:53:24 AM): 15 songs in under half an hour

fillmerejive (12:54:10 AM): you can't put a value on albums in minutes

betternoise (12:54:38 AM): i know but 5 of the songs are previously released

betternoise (12:54:49 AM): they were on 45s, one of which i have

betternoise (12:54:57 AM): but i'm still digging it and all

fillmerejive (12:55:08 AM): good

fillmerejive (12:55:35 AM): nothing much

fillmerejive (12:55:40 AM): sorry wrong im

betternoise (12:55:53 AM): did you see that review of the what's your rupture comp on pitchfork?

fillmerejive (12:56:11 AM): yeah, it seems totally extranious

fillmerejive (12:56:20 AM): i skimmed it i didn't read it

betternoise (12:56:19 AM): explain?

fillmerejive (12:56:51 AM): there's just not much that you can't get on albums, i also only have a passive interest in cause comotion

fillmerejive (12:57:03 AM): and the 4th band i know nothing about

fillmerejive (12:57:17 AM): i love love is all and long blondes though

betternoise (12:57:42 AM): fair enough but when cause comotion blow up can be sure to tell everyone how i got them to play at martini red back in the day?

betternoise (12:58:48 AM): and anyway, the long blondes cuts are good, "giddy stratospheres" is better than the album version and "autonomy boy" is one of their best songs

fillmerejive (12:59:07 AM): i saw them with oxford collapse they were ok, i don't see the blow up really happening

fillmerejive (12:59:24 AM): well i already have that ep downloaded at this point

betternoise (12:59:36 AM): one 9.3 and everyone will be up in their shit

fillmerejive (1:00:14 AM): the fork doesn't just hand over 9.3s, they don't have a 9.3 in em

betternoise (1:00:49 AM): ooof a damning statement if i ever heard one

betternoise (1:01:13 AM): what did they give that piece of shit clap your hands and say yeah debut album?

fillmerejive (1:01:17 AM): not at all

fillmerejive (1:01:41 AM): 9.0 which it very much deserved way more than any cause comotion album

fillmerejive (1:02:11 AM): i'll be honest there's a ton of bands i'm quite fond of that i sincerely don't think have "9.3"s in them

betternoise (1:02:16 AM): well cause comotion doesnt have an album

fillmerejive (1:02:24 AM): futureheads for example

betternoise (1:02:43 AM): and secondly, the CYHASY album is as dull as dishwater

betternoise (1:03:08 AM): so who can say what they'll deem a 9 or better

fillmerejive (1:04:36 AM): it's pretty easy to feel out there taste, and i think that album had very strong songs, a cingular vision with a diversity of sounds, that are all very comendable

fillmerejive (1:05:06 AM): even though i don't really care for the band because they're terrible live and they're new album is a david freeman art project

fillmerejive (1:05:29 AM): well cause comotion have done nothing to indicate they have a great album in them

SO IT BEGINS. (I really could've cut alot of that huh?)

betternoise (1:05:46 AM): hey did you read that thing i posted on myspace today regarding critical consensus?

betternoise (1:06:20 AM): its funny because there was an essay in the voice about almost the exact same thing we discussed a week or so ago

fillmerejive (1:06:49 AM): it's true and the (former pitchfork writer) landed right on your side

fillmerejive (1:07:17 AM): it's like christie todd whitman leaving the bush administration and letting her lips loose

betternoise (1:07:29 AM): yeah i guess

fillmerejive (1:07:36 AM): i'm just kidding

betternoise (1:07:45 AM): i didnt even realize he was a PFer

betternoise (1:08:07 AM): but it was a good read and i think he hit the nail on the head

fillmerejive (1:08:55 AM): i don't, i think consensus is healthy, i also think rebelling against consensus is what causes big musical shifts so i think that push and pull is all very good

fillmerejive (1:09:08 AM): but i'm not walking down that road again

betternoise (1:10:02 AM): he just had this one great line

betternoise (1:10:07 AM): Everyone who's telling you to listen to the same 50 records is caught in a closed loop of incestuous self-assurance, and you owe it to yourselves to leave them behind.

betternoise (1:10:31 AM): which is pretty much exactly how i feel

fillmerejive (1:10:43 AM): of course because there's no way that those 50 records are worth your tiem, i'm not sayign that's it those are the only things worth your time

fillmerejive (1:11:07 AM): i don't see the boris album on the pazz and jop list and i think the dylan album is crap

fillmerejive (1:11:38 AM): but i also don't think it's really made for me nor do i think the boris album is made for the critics makign that list

betternoise (1:12:22 AM): well who is it made for then?

fillmerejive (1:13:18 AM): people who've bought every dylan album for the last 50 years, people who are hemming and hawing over the new lucinda williams album like it's a transmition from the heart of america

betternoise (1:14:03 AM): thats who the list is made for?

fillmerejive (1:14:46 AM): that's who that album is made for, i'll bet that the average age of the people who make that list is mid 30's or later

betternoise (1:15:06 AM): thats certainly plausible

fillmerejive (1:15:07 AM): i'll also bet that those people are 80% male

betternoise (1:15:13 AM): also plausible

fillmerejive (1:15:25 AM): and i'll surely bet that they are 90% white

betternoise (1:15:27 AM): but tv on the radio was ranked 2nd

betternoise (1:15:32 AM): ad you do like them

betternoise (1:15:40 AM): so tv on the radio is for you and them?

fillmerejive (1:15:44 AM): of course it did, it's the consensus cool "kid" album

fillmerejive (1:16:00 AM): the strokes was second to love and theft

fillmerejive (1:16:14 AM): ok computer was second to time out of mind

fillmerejive (1:16:29 AM): hmmmpaterns

betternoise (1:16:40 AM): so your point is..?

fillmerejive (1:17:38 AM): it's not really alist i care to put any thought into, because their consensus will be wittled away by age, i enjoy the buzz of new things anyway, those albums are all so last year paul

betternoise (1:17:52 AM): oh dear

betternoise (1:18:28 AM): well there goes your consensus argument

fillmerejive (1:18:35 AM): no it doesn't

betternoise (1:18:39 AM): cant use that one again

fillmerejive (1:18:49 AM): the bob dylan album is certainly worth a bit of time

fillmerejive (1:19:11 AM): the tv on the radio album will have lasting influence and prevalence do to consensus

betternoise (1:19:27 AM): yeah just like pm dawn

fillmerejive (1:19:45 AM): but my objective music listening and enjoyment of these lists is not the impulse that drives me to albums

fillmerejive (1:20:04 AM): yes paul just liek pm dawn

betternoise (1:20:46 AM): fine but earlier you took the stance than consensus is more valid than personal opinion

betternoise (1:20:54 AM): now youre contradicting that

fillmerejive (1:20:56 AM): it is to a point

betternoise (1:21:18 AM): what's the point? when your opinion differs from it?

fillmerejive (1:21:49 AM): objectivity is more valuable in the long run for the bigger picture than subjective love of your own taste

betternoise (1:22:12 AM): what?

betternoise (1:22:18 AM): in english, please

fillmerejive (1:23:40 AM): i really think that is a pretty clear sentence

betternoise (1:23:50 AM): not really

betternoise (1:24:04 AM): it seems like a bunch of malarky to me

betternoise (1:24:37 AM): the bigger picture? that's a load

fillmerejive (1:24:50 AM): maybe it is paul

betternoise (1:25:37 AM): that's fiction, the biggest picture as far as anyone is concerned is as small as the space between their headphones

betternoise (1:26:05 AM): taste is subjective, period

betternoise (1:26:26 AM): beauty is in the eye of the beholder, yadda yadda yadda

fillmerejive (1:26:41 AM): so why then do you dedicate so much time dogging other people's taste?

betternoise (1:27:01 AM): i'm not dogging your taste

betternoise (1:27:08 AM): i'm giving my opinion

betternoise (1:27:23 AM): youre free to disagree

fillmerejive (1:27:49 AM): if there is a large group of people who are happy to declare the bob dylan album the best album of the year, what is the functional value of arguing against that album

fillmerejive (1:28:03 AM): the thing is you stake your argument in a negative light

fillmerejive (1:28:14 AM): it's never i really love this long blondes album

fillmerejive (1:28:24 AM): it's cyhsy is dishwater

fillmerejive (1:28:41 AM): you end up just nay saying

betternoise (1:28:49 AM): oh i dont know, whats the value of being against the war in iraq when everyone is for it a couple of years ago

betternoise (1:29:07 AM): history is made by those who say "no"

fillmerejive (1:29:21 AM): it's a good thinkg your standing up to the tyranny of bob dylan

fillmerejive (1:29:32 AM): people will have running water as a result

betternoise (1:29:39 AM): oh give me a break

fillmerejive (1:30:03 AM): if opnions are all subjective and consensus doesn't matter than let the baby have it's useless bottle

betternoise (1:30:14 AM): i'm just saying it's if you think a lot of people are into some bullshit, why not call them on it?

betternoise (1:30:50 AM): like the pm dawn thing!

betternoise (1:30:59 AM): did everyone have their head up their ass?

fillmerejive (1:31:56 AM): i said i don't like the bob dylan album but i see no reason to create a federal case about it because apparently alot of people get something out of it i don't, so good for them, i wish i loved the bob dylan album, more good musicis better than less good music

fillmerejive (1:32:11 AM): no at that time alot of people really liked pm dawn!

betternoise (1:32:30 AM): yeah and 15 years later who cares about them?

betternoise (1:32:37 AM): theyre a footnote at best

fillmerejive (1:33:02 AM): i don't know if that's entirly true

betternoise (1:33:09 AM): oh give me a break

fillmerejive (1:33:15 AM): i'll bet cee lo took alot away from the pm dawn album

fillmerejive (1:33:28 AM): i'll bet there's alot of people who still liek that album

fillmerejive (1:33:58 AM): i'll bet more people still listen to their pm dawn album than listen to the dave bazan album

betternoise (1:34:29 AM): i somehow doubt that but i dont see how that's a valid argument anyway

fillmerejive (1:34:36 AM): and who are you to consider yourself better than those people? huh paul who are you?

betternoise (1:34:56 AM): i dont think i'm better

betternoise (1:35:02 AM): i just think i'm me

betternoise (1:35:31 AM): them, not being me, can have no idea what kind of music i like

betternoise (1:35:50 AM): what i'll consider quality

fillmerejive (1:35:54 AM): being critical is one thing but you seem to see all of this as some kind of threat to the msuic you love

betternoise (1:36:11 AM): not really

fillmerejive (1:36:26 AM): likie people like wolf parade more than the fall and that is going to make your life harder

betternoise (1:36:38 AM): of course not

betternoise (1:37:12 AM): but i do think tha being into "underground rock" is pretty much meaningless nowadays

betternoise (1:37:27 AM): its all accessible

fillmerejive (1:37:39 AM): the internet is great liek that

betternoise (1:37:45 AM): great maybe

fillmerejive (1:37:56 AM): democratization is i think the best thing to ever happen to music

betternoise (1:38:01 AM): its a double edged sword, in my opinion

fillmerejive (1:38:16 AM): why shouldn't as many people like pavement as like u2

fillmerejive (1:38:17 AM): ?

betternoise (1:38:28 AM): no reason

fillmerejive (1:38:30 AM): pavememtn are great, they deserve every fan they get

betternoise (1:38:36 AM): of course

fillmerejive (1:38:57 AM): ya know what garth brooks isn't great but i begrudge him no fan, good for everyone

betternoise (1:39:29 AM): fine, but dont you think theres a degree of gentrification going on?

fillmerejive (1:40:17 AM): actually no, i think that the pendulum swings so fast now that between backlash and hype people weed things out for themselves

betternoise (1:40:28 AM): i couldnt disagree more

fillmerejive (1:41:16 AM): the fact that the tv on the radio album did well on lists doesn't matter because somewhere a guy who wanted the tapes n' tapes album to better is not going to put on the tv on the radio album because someone told him to

fillmerejive (1:41:28 AM): and if he does then he was a sheep anyway so oh well

betternoise (1:41:39 AM): of course he's a sheep

betternoise (1:41:49 AM): but dont you think many critics are?

betternoise (1:42:07 AM): dont you think they feel the pressure to be "correct?"

fillmerejive (1:42:39 AM): maybe, either that or their contrarian just to be the happy bomb thrower

fillmerejive (1:43:00 AM): it's not liek all of the sudden this occured it's not like the percentages just went haywire

fillmerejive (1:43:26 AM): there are more critics but i'd say there are just as many who stand outside the popular opinion as there always have been

betternoise (1:43:39 AM): i dont know about it

betternoise (1:43:47 AM): didnt you read that essay?

betternoise (1:44:22 AM): consensus

betternoise (1:44:27 AM): you should ignore it

betternoise (1:44:57 AM): its meaningless not just to me but to you

fillmerejive (1:45:06 AM): in forming your own opnions probably, but it's sometimes worth noting that other people's taste has some value

betternoise (1:45:29 AM): not to you it doesnt

fillmerejive (1:45:32 AM): i like to look at things objectivly, it's what seperates me from the republicans

betternoise (1:45:38 AM): hahahahaha

betternoise (1:45:58 AM): well i'm saying theres no way of being objective with art

fillmerejive (1:46:31 AM): sure it does, cause i like readin lists and i liek to know why things end up where they are, i like it like some people like sports, it's fun, you route for certain things but than you objectivly handicap these things

fillmerejive (1:46:49 AM): i'm saying that you're totally wrong

betternoise (1:47:31 AM): okay but does the dylan album being number one make it sound any better to you?

fillmerejive (1:48:48 AM): nope, because i'm sure there is something that i would see in that if i was a baby boomer

fillmerejive (1:48:57 AM): or even if i was in my 40's

fillmerejive (1:49:07 AM): russell really likes it i respect his opnion sometimes

betternoise (1:49:25 AM): but it doesnt sound any better to you!!

betternoise (1:49:38 AM): end of story!

fillmerejive (1:49:56 AM): but i can see that it's good in spite of my personal prejuduce

betternoise (1:50:23 AM): no you can't

betternoise (1:50:37 AM): because if you dont want to listen to it its not good!!

betternoise (1:50:50 AM): and if you think anything else youre fooling yourself

fillmerejive (1:51:22 AM): i'm a hell of a huckster

betternoise (1:51:34 AM): your personal prejudice is part of what make you yourself

fillmerejive (1:51:50 AM): jeez half of me feels so totally duped and half of me thinks i'm just about the slyest cat around

betternoise (1:51:54 AM): when you act in spite of it youre throwing away your individuality

betternoise (1:52:03 AM): and youre just another sheep

betternoise (1:52:22 AM): fuck that noise, man

fillmerejive (1:52:35 AM): baaaaaaaaa

betternoise (1:53:07 AM): alright fine

fillmerejive (1:53:13 AM): if i give in to your argument i'd be a rabid individualist like yourself

fillmerejive (1:53:16 AM): and chris ott

fillmerejive (1:53:19 AM): and russell

betternoise (1:53:30 AM): at least you have enough personal conviction to not agree with me

fillmerejive (1:54:11 AM): and bowie actually follows your argument

fillmerejive (1:54:15 AM): eric too actually

fillmerejive (1:54:21 AM): marisa

fillmerejive (1:54:34 AM): in fact most people i know follow your line of reasoning pretty much

betternoise (1:54:35 AM): but you should just be honest with yourself and say if you dont like it, its bad, and if you do, its good